1994 Permanent House Journal Printed Pages 2030-2039 - South Carolina Legislature Online

Journal of the House of Representatives
of the Second Session of the 110th General Assembly
of the State of South Carolina
being the Regular Session Beginning Tuesday, January 11, 1994

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Printed Page 2020, Feb. 10 | Printed Page 2040, Feb. 10

Printed Page 2030 . . . . . Thursday, February 10, 1994

THE CHAIRMAN: All right, and you haven't seen any other lists in which names were on where they might be ... where he might quote, feel good about them, other than the one that was referenced.
A. That's the only one that I've ever seen and I apologize for not having it.
THE CHAIRMAN: All right, you think that list that's been thrown away and is no longer in existence?
A. I feel confident that... you know, I just don't remember it after that particular ten minute period that he gave it to me, and the reporter asked me something about it, and I don't remember it since then.
THE CHAIRMAN: Has he sought your conditional pledge at all? Has he said after screening's over, I'd like for you to vote for me?
A. No, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN: Other questions from Committee members? Senator McConnell.
EXAMINATION BY SENATOR McCONNELL:
Q. Has he in any way said indirectly that he wants you to get somebody's support?
A. No, sir. I think I'd recognize anything that was in any way... you know, a suggestion of that, and no, he has not.
EXAMINATION BY SENATOR MOORE:
Q. Mr. Chairman, before I ask Senator Land a question, I believe I'm quoted in this and I want to make sure that for the record everybody on this screening panel and anyone else who cares to know it, I believe as soon as the interview with Senator Land was concluded, the reporter asked my opinion and asked me to make a comment. And I think you see where it says I serve on the screening committee. I said that I didn't see any problem with Land's description of the request. Based on what I understood was a list would be given to Senator Land and he had in his possession a list of names, talking about people that Mr. Kittrell would like to be introduced to. That's all that I heard; I mean, that's what my comment is about this. But the next part, I want to make sure that everybody understands. When it quotes me and says each legislator and each judicial candidate has to establish their own parameters is that category,... they'll have to answer for their own actions. I also said that we didn't operate in a vacuum here, that each candidate and each legislator should be aware of the law and know that they can't make pledges or seek commitments, etc. until after the screening report has been completed. So, I just want to make sure that everybody on this committee understands I wasn't saying that each legislator and each judicial candidate has to establish their own parameters exclusive of what the law and what

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we've been telling everybody. Senator Land, I guess that you and I have probably spent as much time while we are in Columbia, in our few hours of social time, going to lunch together or something like that, as anybody in the Senate. Have you ever mentioned to me about voting for Commissioner Kittrell?
A. No, sir. I never have. In fact, I have yet to decide who all is in that race and who is who.
Q. If I recall any conversation you and I have ever had about this whole matter is, you asked... I believe you asked me one time, Well, how many people are running because everytime you turn around somebody else says I'm so-and-so, running for ALJ.
A. That's right. I just found that a fine young man from Manning in Clarendon County is also running for a seat.
Q. And, I believe, about the only .... and I've tried to search my mind in any conversation you and I have ever had of this. I believe that one other time you asked me, when do you expect the screening report to be completed? And I believe I told you sometime in February. And I didn't even remember a specific date, so I just want to make sure that everybody understands I consider Senator Land a close personal friend and a legislative friend, but in regards to this, I don't think there is any question as far as what he's asked me or what any list is concerned. If he had a list that he was working on, I'll bet you he would have come to me and asked me what I thought about this one or that one.
A. I don't want Mr. Kittrell to think that I took his request lightly, but I did move forward on it.
Q. Well, I just want to make sure, Mr. Chairman, the Committee understood my response to the question about folks operating or working within the parameters ... working in the parameters as the law requires them to do, and it was specifically pointed to if someone needed to be introduced, because I've had people to walk up to me, candidates for judgeships, elected offices, introducing themselves and I'm thinking, well, I can't talk to you... I mean, I can't talk about the race, but I certainly can be cordial and speak to you and I think that's what most people up here have tried to do.
THE CHAIRMAN: Another question, Senator McConnell?
RE-EXAMINATION BY SENATOR McCONNELL:
Q. Yes, one other question. The list that you got, did it indicate whether or not those were pledges or commitments on the list. Senator?
A. Senator, I apologize... I did not look at the thing that carefully. In fact, I believe that the only reason I paid any attention to it was because Ms. Scoppe said, "Good feeling or good pulse, what's that?" And that's

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the only time I looked at it. And, I just remember in my mind that it was a list over here and a list over here. And I can't remember who was on there, how many was on there or anything else. As the Lord is my witness, I don't know where it is. I mean, I never saw it again, and that's the only thing I remember about it. I think I can answer your question a different way. I'm sure that there was nothing on there that said anything about commitments or will vote for me, and I feel confident it was a blank list... a list over here with no heading, a list over here with the heading of good feeling or good pulse or something like that.
THE CHAIRMAN: Let me ask you a couple of other questions. Are you finished on that Senator?
SEN. McCONNELL: Yes, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN: Representative Sturkie.
EXAMINATION BY REPRESENTATIVE STURKIE:
Q. Senator, did, at the time that you were presented this list, did you go to some of those that were on the names... on the list, or did you act on the list whatsoever?
A. No, sir. I did not act on it in any way. Not that I was pressed to do anything that was improper. I was derelict. I didn't do anything further and that's the end of it.
Q. Okay.
THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Representative Alexander.
EXAMINATION BY REPRESENTATIVE ALEXANDER:
Q. How did Ms. Scoppe know you even had the list?
A. As well as I remember it... and I can't remember whether Mr. Kittrell gave me or talked to me between the elevator and door or whether he talked to me inside. I seem to think it was probably was outside. But anyway, I walked in and I had that in my hand with some other things and Ms. Scoppe asked me to sit down with her and asked me a totally unrelated question. In fact, I don't even know what that was now. And I had this thing in my hand, and while we were talking, she said something to the effect of good pulse or good feeling, what is that? And, of course, at that time, I looked... I don't even know if I had my glasses on and I told her that was Commissioner Kittrell who had asked that I introduce him to some people.
Q. Senator, did she ask to see the list?
A. I don't think there was anything more... well, I think she said at that point, that's unlawful. And I said, I don't think it's unlawful. And something was brought up at that particular point whether they had passed screening or not and I didn't know, and I think I asked some Judiciary Committee member who was standing there, had they passed screening

Printed Page 2033 . . . . . Thursday, February 10, 1994

yet, and she said no. And I said, well, I saw something in the paper, that must have been the Bar recommendation. And that was the end of it. In fact, I don't think I had any more conversation with her about it for a week or so other than the fact that later that day she asked me had I mentioned our conversation to Mr. Kittrell. And I said, I certainly did. And then a week or so went by and then she asked me again and told me that that point... that's not what... said that Mr. Kittrell said that he asked you to introduce him, and I said that's what he had asked me. And she said, that's not what you told me. And I said, well, I'm sorry, that's a play on words but anyway that's what he asked me, period.
Q. In other words, this happened several weeks ago? It wasn't something that just happened yesterday or the day before; this happened several weeks ago?
A. I want to say last Tuesday, but I could be a week off.
Q. Oh, that's all right.
THE CHAIRMAN: Senator, you have a very successful comp practice from all I understand.
A. Yes, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN: And you're very familiar with the lawyers around the state who practice a good bit of comp, aren't you?
A. Yes, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN: Have any of them called you about Mr. Kittrell, Commissioner Kittrell or contacted you in any way on his behalf?
A. None other than one lady from Greenville and her name escapes me right now, but she did not ... I have seen her with him.
THE CHAIRMAN: That... might it be his fiancee, Ms Williams?
A. Well, oh,... right. But she has not asked me that either, but other than that, no lawyer has asked me to vote for him, and I think I had a conversation one time with Ben Bollin about his candidacy, but I can't remember now whether that was before we determined whether or not they would hear workers' comp appeals.
THE CHAIRMAN: Did she ask you to vote for him?
A. No, no, no one has asked me to vote for Mr. Kittrell.
THE CHAIRMAN: But other than that, you've had no contacts from anyone. That's what... okay. Any other questions? Are you aware of anyone in the Senate or the House who has pledged to Mr. Kittrell or any other member... or any other candidate who is running for these offices?
A. No, not at all. In fact, I was amazed this morning that nobody had read the article. First time, I'm the only one upset about it.
THE CHAIRMAN: No, you see a group in here that was upset about it. Questions, any other questions from the members or from staff? All right.

Printed Page 2034 . . . . . Thursday, February 10, 1994

Thank you very much, Senator. We appreciate your being willing to come today.
SEN. LAND: Thank you very much. See you all, I'm going to Sumter. Thank you all.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, Mr. Kittrell, Marvin Kittrell. Would you come forth please? Raise your right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? MR. KITTRELL:I do.
THE CHAIRMAN: Please be seated. Mr. Elliott is going to ask you a few questions.
EXAMINATION BY MR. ELLIOTT:
Q. Mr. Kittrell, what request did you make of Senator Land regarding your candidacy and with the list that you were giving him?
A. I agree with what he just said. There were several Senators that I had never met, and I nearly, just on a impulse, asked him if he would introduce me to several Senators. And he said, well, who is it? And for some reason, I had a list of some people that I hadn't met and I just pulled it out and handed it to him.
Q. The captions he said you had over the two different columns on the list... is that an accurate recollection he had?
A. Yes.
Q. One of them entitled "good pulse?"
A. I sat down the night before and I just tried to recollect whom I visited and talked with and introduced myself to and who I thought had been friendly toward me as I told them about who I was. But I deny I have asked anyone for any commitments or that I have asked anyone to help or assist me in any way, to influence any member of this legislature in helping me getting votes. I would be stupid to do that; I've been in public service almost three years now.
Q. Well, tell me a little more fully how you arrived at the conclusion that you should list some under the "good pulse" category?
A. That was the people that I had already introduced myself to, and the other one was just a list of people that I hadn't met yet.
Q. So everybody you met was under the "good pulse" category.
A. Well, I think so. Not everyone I met; obviously, I don't get a good feeling from everyone around here. You know, you meet some people and they're really friendly and some people are a little curt with you. The people that are... maybe not curt, just aren't as friendly as others. And I had a lot of those listed, but those were not people... there were only three or four on there, I said these are the people. I don't know Senator Leventis, and he's over in his neck of the woods, and I asked him if he'd

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kindly introduce him to me. I don't know Senator Leatherman, and I asked him if he would introduce me to him. And there were three or four people... that's all it was.
Q. In the course of your introductions, what occurs in those introductions?
A. My introductions to members of the Legislature?
Q. That's right. I'm sorry, yes.
A. I passed my resume out... well, I mailed a letter out during the summer to all members of the General Assembly, announcing that I might be filing for one of the three seats and sent a copy of my resume, the same resume that I'm using now, and what I do is tell them I'm Buddy Kittrell, I'm running for Seat 1 and I'd like to be considered whenever the screening report is out. I said I'd like to talk with you about my qualifications on that if you have time to let me talk with you about it. If you don't, if there's some other agreeable time, I'd like to meet with you at that time. Some people have time, some don't. And that's what I do.
Q. Do you do anything to make it clear you're not soliciting pledges?
A. Well, I sure do.
Q. What is that?
A. Well, I tell them I can't seek your commitment and I'm not asking for your commitment until after the screening report comes out.
Q. Did you provide lists to any other person?
A. No, sir. That was an impulse thing which was wrong. You know I shouldn't have provided him with something like that but I did it right out in the open floor in front of everybody. I wasn't trying to hide anything from anyone and I wasn't asking him to help me get votes or trying to influence anyone. I knew he was from that area of the state, that he probably knew these people. And he said he'd be happy to introduce those people.
Q. All right. And is it your testimony that no introductions occurred?
A. That's correct.
Q. With the assistance of Senator Land?
A. Shortly thereafter, he came to me and said he had some questions asked. I said, well, I don't want any wrong perception of anything that's happened between me and you in our discussion. I think it would just be better that we just don't do anything. And he agreed with me, and I should do it on my own. If I can get an interview or if I can say hello to some of the Senators that I have, and I've been able to talk to a couple of them.
Q. Do you have a copy of the list that you provided to Senator Land?
A. No, sir.

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Q. Do you currently have a list?
A. That was the only list I had.
Q. And you do not have a current list?
A. No, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN: Why would you feel it necessary to give Senator Land a list that had good pulse on it? Why didn't you just give him a list of people you hadn't met?
A. Well, we were just standing there, Mr. Hodges, for just maybe a minute or so and he was in a hurry, and I should have stood there and written out a couple of names. But I just pointed to a few names on it.
THE CHAIRMAN: But as I understand it, the purpose was to provide him a list of people who you had not met at all or perhaps had met in passing and that you wanted an introduction to them. Is that...?
A. It was so that he would have the names of the three or four people that I'd like to be introduced to.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. But in addition to those three or four names on the list that you gave him, there were other names which you apparently had had some contact with and you felt that you had a warm reception, not a commitment, but that you felt good about.
A. Oh, I feel I've had warm receptions from a lot of people, but I don't know whether they're going to vote for me or not, Mr. Hodges. And I feel like I have not had a warm reception from some people, and I don't know how better to state it, you know. I don't know how I am with really anyone.
THE CHAIRMAN: Well, let me just be frank. What troubles me is that if the purpose of the list was for him to introduce you to some people whom you had not met, and you don't have a copy of that list, I have trouble understanding why Senator Land would have been provided with the list that had good vibs or good feeling or whatever on it. I mean, if that's the only list, if there wasn't a copy of it made and that those notations were made by their names, it ... I mean, I just have trouble with that.
A. Well, I have no idea why he doesn't have it, Mr. Hodges. I just pulled it out of my pocket, you know, and just on an impulse, and handed it to him because he was in a hurry to go somewhere else. I didn't feel like I had time to sit there, you know, and write those names down. That's my sole explanation for that. I mean, it's just a time frame, as you know, and you get someone and you talk with them for five or six seconds and somebody else pulls on them and pulls them away, and you know it's just a busy thing down there.

Printed Page 2037 . . . . . Thursday, February 10, 1994

THE CHAIRMAN: But again, just to make it clear. The purpose for the list was to provide some names who you wanted an introduction from.
A. That's right, Mr. Hodges.
THE CHAIRMAN: All right, and was there....
A. I didn't ask him to do anything.
THE CHAIRMAN: The list that had good vibs or whatever the word used was, there was no reason for that?
A. That was only my personal feeling as to how I felt with those people, not as to how I felt whether they were going to vote for me or they were committed but whether I thought I had a warm reception with them or not. THE CHAIRMAN:But you weren't asking Senator Land to do anything with those people?
A. No, I really wasn't asking... no, sir, I wasn't asking him to do anything with those. The other side was really people I just really hadn't even met.
THE CHAIRMAN: You don't recall how many names were on that list of those you hadn't met?
A. Probably around 20, I don't know. I think it was about equal names on each side of the page.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, questions? Yes, Representative Alexander.
EXAMINATION BY REPRESENTATIVE ALEXANDER:
Q. How long have you known Senator Land?
A. I knew of him before I came on the Commission. I came on the Commission in November of 1990. He says I tried three of his cases. I think I've tried two, and it's been a year and a half or longer since I've tried any of his cases.
Q. Do you know him on a personal basis?
A. No. Never been to his home. Never been to his office.
Q. Why did you single him out rather than some of the other Senators?
A. I don't know. It was an impulse. I was standing out at the little chain thing... the little guardrail... and he came out there just saying hello to all the people, and we were chatting, and he pulled me on the inside in the little foyer area in there and he said, how are you doing? And I guess it was out of courtesy because I've known him since I've been on the Commission. And I asked him if he would introduce me to three or four people.
Q. Did he agree?
A. He said he'd be happy to introduce me to some people.
Q. Has he done it?
A. No, sir. Because I asked him not to.
THE CHAIRMAN: Senator McConnell.

Printed Page 2038 . . . . . Thursday, February 10, 1994

EXAMINATION BY SENATOR McCONNELL:
Q. Do you know of anything in your conversation where you implied or communicated to him that you wanted to get the support of somebody?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was there anything on the piece of paper that indicated that any of those people may have pledged to you?
A. I have no pledges from anyone. Let me just say one thing. The article says lawmakers seeks probe of workers' comp official's campaign. I want to make it clear, I am not running as a workers' comp official. I have had personal stationery printed, and I have personal cars that I have used. And, it made it look in the paper like I am using my position to run for this job. And I have not done that. I want to make that clear to all of you gentlemen here today. I have tried very carefully to divorce myself in this campaign from my position, and I have never introduced myself to anyone as Commissioner Kittrell. I do as Buddy Kittrell everywhere I go.
THE CHAIRMAN: Questions... Representative Sturkie.
EXAMINATION BY REPRESENTATIVE STURKIE:
Q. Mr. Kittrell, this is a list, I am just trying to understand, that you had prepared sometime earlier and it was just sort of... as I take it... a personal reference sheet that you had prepared earlier and was the only sheet that you had prepared. In other words, you had not prepared backup sheets or made copies of this for any kind of distribution?
A. No, sir.
Q. And, from what you're telling us, on an impulse you had this sheet in your pocket at that point in time and gave that to Senator Land so that he could go ahead with intros because you did not feel you had the time to sit there and give him a list or write out another list. I mean, I keep hearing you say that you felt like you had a time problem there with ...
A. Well, there were people pulling at him at the same time and there were other Senators that were pulling at him and he was trying to talk to them and, you know, ... just a busy Senate.
THE CHAIRMAN: Questions? Senator Moore.
EXAMINATION BY SENATOR MOORE:
Q. Mr. Kittrell, was the list just a ... subjective list that you'd handwritten; it was not a roll call sheet of any kind that says aye or nay or any checks saying yea and nay.
A. I don't have any roll call sheets; I haven't done that yet.
Q. And it was just a list that you....
A. Something I'd handwritten on a piece of notebook paper.
Q. Subjective, feel good, pulse, whatever?
A. Yes, sir.

Printed Page 2039 . . . . . Thursday, February 10, 1994

THE CHAIRMAN: Senator McConnell.
RE-EXAMINATION BY SENATOR McCONNELL:
Q. One other question. Why would you want Senator Land to introduce somebody? Why couldn't you just go up and introduce yourself to them?
A. Well, I guess I can, Senator. I don't know why I did that on impulse. I guess that I just got caught up in a friendly conversation and I just asked him if he would do that. I guess I was incorrect in asking him to do that because the perception is that I've done something wrong, and I don't want that perception to be there. I should have done... I agree with you... I should have done that on my own and not asked him to introduce me. I apologize both to him, if there's been any embarrassment to him, and also to the Screening Committee.
THE CHAIRMAN: Let me get back to one last question that I have. The purpose for the... there was no purpose for putting the names that you had good feelings about... for putting those names on the list to Senator Land?
A. I didn't prepare that list for him, Mr. Hodges. Let me be clear about that. I prepared that for my own personal use, just how, and to see who I needed to go try to see on that particular day and introduce myself to. That was the only purpose of my list.
THE CHAIRMAN: But you didn't retain a copy of that? I thought you said you gave that to the Senator?
A. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Other questions.
A. That's not to say that I haven't gone back to my apartment, you know, and written down my thoughts about different candidates... I mean, not candidates,... but, you know, people that I've chatted with. I've written down my thoughts but I can't do anything about it, Mr. Representative, until after the report comes out. Then I want to go call on them and see if I can get their commitment at that time.
THE CHAIRMAN: Further questions? Staff? Steve? If not, thank you very much, Commissioner.
A. Thank you all very much.
THE CHAIRMAN: Anyone else wish to testify in this matter? Anyone else in the room who has any information about any of these statements that were made? No response. All right. Motion that we go into executive session?
REP. BEATTY: So moved.
SEN. MOORE: Second.
THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor say aye. Opposed, no. The ayes have it.

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