Journal of the House of Representatives
of the Second Session of the 110th General Assembly
of the State of South Carolina
being the Regular Session Beginning Tuesday, January 11, 1994

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| Printed Page 2410, Feb. 24 | Printed Page 2430, Feb. 24 |
Printed Page 2420 . . . . . Thursday, February 24, 1994
A. There is -- both. There is a balance again that must be maintained. If I can make a parallel from my own publication, there is an ongoing struggle, but a must to make a profit, to be able to pay for people that work for me, to be able to pay my printer today when I go back. So there is an ongoing struggle for that.

But by the same token, there is a duty that I have to serve that segment of the community or that niche which I've carved out for myself and that balance, there is no one variable that's any more significant than the other.

Now right now when I go home, I need to go home and pay my printer. Right now what I consider more important is bottom line, but I can't escape the fact that if I do not adequately serve my readers, if I do -- am not fair in my assessment or in my deliverance of information that I'm going to have a problem ultimately. The whole enterprise fails, so what I'm saying is there has to be an equal balance there recognizing that.

The monopoly or oligopoly has to -- is the one best in line to deliver that service, but again the consumer, you and I, everyone in this state, is entitled to the lowest rate possible. They know they're going to have to pay something, but the lowest rate possible.

Again, that balance has to be maintained. No one over the other and some people might argue with that, but there has got to be a balance struck there.
Q. Let me ask you also a question that Mr. Couick touched on, that is, the advertising in your newspaper, have you in the past accepted advertising from utility companies through the paper?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And I don't have any problem with that. How would you handle that in the future if you did see an increase? You spoke a little bit about it, but I didn't really get a clear answer.
A. Right. It would really depend -- I went in two different directions. That's probably why you were not sure what I said. Again, if we were to sell the enterprise, then I don't have a problem. If I were to maintain ownership control, I would probably feel more comfortable in not accepting monies from Southern Bell, BEC or SCE&G. Those are the only three entities that I'm familiar with down in my area that I would be concerned with.

Again, we have refused certain types of advertising and other people have before, so I -- and we're really not talking about a whole lot. It's, you know -- you know, by -- they can't do an excessive amount of advertising and be responsible, so we're not talking about damaging the enterprise as a whole. And I would really be in a comfortable enough position to refuse those if ownership is kept.

Printed Page 2421 . . . . . Thursday, February 24, 1994
Q. Thank you. Mr. Chairman?
THE CHAIRMAN: Representative Huff.
EXAMINATION BY REPRESENTATIVE HUFF:
Q. Ms. Clyburn, you sounded almost like a lawyer when you can go two different ways at the same time, but what do you perceive to be one of the most controversial topics just from your general familiarity with the PSC or issues that you've read about? What would you perceive to be the most controversial issue that the PSC may have to involve itself in, say, within the next four to five years?
A. I think this Information Highway issue that we're reading a lot about is going to be something that -- it's interesting to me from the outside looking in, from a person who is running a business who almost went to banking and finance, probably would not have a job right now, but, anyway, from a straight line business standpoint that flexibility and diversity seems exciting and I know I see that Southern Bell has filed something here.

But again I think we need to be real careful in terms of the regulatory aspect of it to make sure that there is no shifting in terms of dollars from one area that may be more either experimental or a little more risk -- less risk at first. I can't think of my word right now, but a more risk taking venture as opposed to your basic services to make sure that a holding company is possibly just kind of looking.

You'd have a holding company there and the entity that if I'm using my telephone that the cable service that might be provided does not effect the rate of my phone service. So that is going to be a big challenge and I can't speculate on what's going to happen, but there are going to be some changes made in order for local enterprises to be more competitive because it's happening everywhere else.
Q. Do you think there is going to be a lot of pressure there to -- particularly in the issues of monopolies as opposed to assuming another competitor came in that can offer the same services as the Informational Highway as we call it versus Southern Bell? I notice that you mention monopolies and oligopolies. Are you familiar at all with any of the issues that have been raised in territorial assignments and how they interplay between SCE&G and the Cooperatives of this state?
A. Oh, we had a big argument down in the low county.
Q. I thought you did. I was just curious as to --
A. I was kind of scared to go down on Bonita (phonetic) Road anyway.
Q. Yes.

Printed Page 2422 . . . . . Thursday, February 24, 1994
A. Yeah, I'm kind of uneasy with it. There are some questions, in just kind of reviewing some of the things, you know, I learned a lot, too, about in terms of, again, what jurisdiction the PSC has and not.

There are going to be some ongoing conflicts I think as we annex -- and being from Charleston we just annexed with Daniel Island. And as cities attempt to grow and get -- expand their tax base, that's definitely going to -- and co-ops, some of the smaller entities and municipal run utilities.

There's going to be an ongoing -- it's not going to get any easier. It's going to get really ugly in terms of territory and we're just going to have to make the -- look at the consumer. That's the time we're going to have to really look at the consumer and see if it's within the parameters of the PSC to make that decision, who best can supply that service.
Q. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN: Representative Wilkes.
EXAMINATION BY REPRESENTATIVE WILKES:
Q. Good morning, Ms. Clyburn.
A. Good morning.
Q. I'm Representative Wilkes from Fairfield County. It's nice to see you. I, too, find you very intelligent and articulate and --
A. And nervous.
Q. -- and nervous and that's understandable. You mentioned something and I would like to know maybe a little more about your philosophy. Just out of interest, you mentioned things could get ugly?
A. Yes.
Q. Could get ugly?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And so --
A. It got ugly in Charleston.
Q. Yes, and so if you were in a position -- in a decision making position when things get ugly, would you consider yourself an emotionally driven person or a logically driven person?
A. I have been told by my -- I hate to say this -- my ex says I'm very logical. Ex-boyfriend, not husband. You know, very, very logical about being able to look at the bottom line. And I'm not saying that I don't get angry and I'm not saying that I don't empathize with persons, but I really think, you know, after you go outside and blow smoke and come back in it and look at what is the best for the consumer.
Q. Reason over emotion?
A. Right.
Q. How about urban oriented versus rural oriented?

Printed Page 2423 . . . . . Thursday, February 24, 1994
A. There are some definite differences. I'm trying to -- can you be more specific?
Q. For instance, if you're talking about territorial disputes and you've got co-ops versus maybe a big utility or you're interested in economic development in urban areas where sometimes it's more difficult or more expensive to get infrastructure, you know, if there -- the reason I ask this question is as I have been -- as a member of the General Assembly, I have seen a division among the members from the urban areas versus the rural areas?
A. Right.
Q. Even since the last census, and I'm just wondering, are you more urban, more rural or pretty objective, you know, about --
A. I think I'm pretty objective. My mother is from Moncks Corner and that's almost urban now. And my family has roots -- farm roots in Bishopville, Camden, so I do empathize. But I think as long as there's not an duplication or an overlapping of services, I'm not sure if that's where you're getting at, and that was one of the questions down on Johns Island that, you know, there is overlapping that just does not make basic economic sense.

So I don't think I have -- we've got to weigh things because you don't want any one entity to suffer because of the other and usually some of the rural persons are a little more sensitive because they see these sprawling urban districts and things kind of remain constant in the outskirts, though some people might not see it that way. There is a need for economic diversity and a viability in the rural areas. By the same token, we need to be careful with the balance. I don't want to say --
Q. I understand.
A. -- maintain because sometimes maintain is a negative.
Q. Balance is a very good word. Thank you very much.
THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? Senator Jackson.
EXAMINATION BY SENATOR JACKSON:
Q. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Clyburn, welcome, and I want to congratulate you for having an interest in being a public servant. I want to ask you one question as it relates to the Office of the Consumer Advocate. Are you familiar with the Office of Consumer Advocate?
A. Is that Mr. Hamm?
Q. Yes.
A. Okay.
Q. How do you think that office relates to the Public Service Commission and how do you see the role of the Consumer Advocate with the individual Public Service Commission?

Printed Page 2424 . . . . . Thursday, February 24, 1994
A. With individual Public Service Commissioners?
Q. First of all, the role of the Office of the Consumer Advocate with the Public Service Commission and second the role of the relationship of the Consumer Advocate with individual Public Service Commissioners?
A. I think that it's significant and important for there to be someone there acting as the ears and eyes of those members of the community, someone who is more tangible. A Consumer Advocate, there is no question what that means, that hopefully in an ideal sense that people would go in with their concerns, people who may be illequipped in terms of eloquent or financially go to say Mr. Ham and say, you know, we're having a problem out on Johns Island, that this ruling or what have you is adversely effecting this segment of the population, can you help us?

So there is a need to have a Consumer Advocate expounding or expressing or vocalizing the concerns of persons because even though we might be all well intentioned, no one really will positively effect everyone. Someone is going to fall through the cracks, so a consumer advocate can say, yeah, 90 percent of our population will benefit from X, but there is ten percent over here who is really suffering, so we need have an amendment or something into place.

And someone walking up the street may not -- may just complain about it and may not feel comfortable enough, you know, to articulate that, but 34Steve Hamm, who I think is an attorney, but I'm not sure, and I don't mean that as a negative, is in a position to articulate that and put that into place and put that into motion for them and come before this commission.

Now, if I understand correctly, in terms of individual -- I know he's come before the commission before. In terms of individual -- one on one relationships?
Q. Yes.
A. Is that what you mean?
Q. I think you've answered the question. I guess the second part was that you referred to that you see him more as an advocate of the people?
A. Right.
Q. And not as someone who is a colleague of the commissioners, but basically an advocate of the people?
A. I don't see him that way. That's not how I --
THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions from the committee? Thank you, Ms. Clyburn.
A. Thank you, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN: I appreciate your offering for the candidate and I find that you've been real articulate.
A. Thank you.

Printed Page 2425 . . . . . Thursday, February 24, 1994
THE CHAIRMAN: Answered questions well. Sorry you had to get nervous. I think you've probably got some heredity traits.
A. Being nervous. Thank you.
MR. COUICK: You're welcome to come up to the witness stand at this time. While you're standing if you will take an oath by raising your hand.

PERSONAL DATA QUESTIONNAIRE SUMMARY

1. Ms. Mignon L. Clyburn

Home Address: Business Address:

16 Darlington Avenue 2106 Mt. Pleasant Street

Charleston, SC 29403 Charleston, SC 29403

2. She was born in Charleston, South Carolina on March 22, 1962.

Social Security Number: ***-**-****.

3. S.C. Driver's License Number: *******;

S.C. Voter's Registration Number: 2544691.

4. She is single, no children.

6. She graduated from W. J. Keenan High School in 1980, and earned a B.S. in Business Administration from the University of South Carolina in 1984.

9. She was a C&S bank teller in the summers of 1979 through 1983, a page in the Lt. Governor's Office from 1982 to 1984, and worked with the Coastal Times newspaper from 1984 to present.

10. She is an associate publisher at the Coastal Times.

22. She has spent approximately $100 on telephone calls and anticipates issuing a follow-up mailing at a cost of approximately $50.

26. Professional organizations: South Carolina Association of Black Journalists, treasurer, 1992 to present; United Way Allocations Board, 1991-93; Charleston Area Arts Council, 1992-93; Board of Adjustment, Site and Design, City of Chas., 1991-93; and Black Women Entrepreneurs, president 1993 to present.

Printed Page 2426 . . . . . Thursday, February 24, 1994
27. Civic, charitable, etc. organizations: Network of Charleston; CASES; Charleston County Young Democrats; Charleston County Coalition for Black Voter Participation; Charleston Affordable Housing; Wagener Terrace Neighborhood Assoc.; NAACP; YWCA; and Democratic Women.

29. Five letters of reference:

(a) Sandra Fowler

2415 Middle Street

Sullivan's Island, SC 29482

(803) 883-9000

(b) H. Ronald Stanley

P.O. Box 7722

Columbia, SC 29202

(803) 799-4700

(c) Daryl Milligan, Sr.

200 Meeting Street

Charleston, SC 29401

(803) 723-6867

(d) James White

500 Thurmond Mall Suite 324

Columbia, SC 29201

(803) 779-0752

(e) Henry Williams

701 East Bay Street, Suite 532

Charleston, SC 29403

(803) 577-0052

30. First District.

EUGENE NOVGORODOFF, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
MR. NOVGORODOFF - EXAMINATION BY MR. COUICK:
Q. I had sent out a letter earlier this week that asked for you to bring evidence of your residency, a driver's license or certificate of voter registration. Did you receive that letter and if you didn't, maybe you have your driver's license with you?
A. Yes.
Q. If you could share that with Ms. Hammond. You indicate your address on your driver's license to be 9120 Delancey Circle in Charleston, South Carolina, 29418. Does that continue to be your correct address?

Printed Page 2427 . . . . . Thursday, February 24, 1994
A. That is.
Q. Would you please state for the record your full name please?
A. Eugene Novgorodoff.
Q. Thank you. And I apologize if I tend to mispronounce it from time to time. I've suffered all my life from the same affliction you've had in terms of a name that is somewhat hard to pronounce, but I will do my best.
A. Couick is very simple.
Q. It's -- you have an interesting history in terms of your employment and your education. Would you like to share that with the committee briefly in terms of your place of birth and your employment over the years and mainly the international flavor it has.
A. Yes. I was born in transit in Harbin, Manchuria while my parents were fleeing from the Communists in -- from Moscow. They were both residents of Moscow. And they didn't appreciate the bourgeoisie, so off with their heads. Rather to have -- they were trying to preserve their heads and ran east. Many of the emigres ran west and finally -- eventually ended up in the United States. We ended up in China and particularly in Shanghai where I lived most of the time. It was my home for almost 25 years.

I was fortunate enough to have an international upbringing at the Public School for Boys which started off as a private school, but then it became a public. And in becoming public, they admitted people from many nationalities and, of course, was truly an international school. As a matter of fact, the badge that they had in the school which I wore on my hat was 12 nations, the flags of 12 nations, which was a very diverse and very interesting experience for me.

In Shanghai, I joined the Shanghai Telephone Company and served an apprenticeship there. It was very intensive. We worked around 14 or 15 hours a day for three years. And then eventually I was assigned to -- but the war broke out, the first world war. But prior to World War II breaking out, the Chinese and the Japanese had tremendous conflict in 1937 to 1939, so the city was disrupted all the time.

During that time also I joined the Shanghai Volunteers Corps which was a uniformed service to protect the city. It was a very uniquely interesting organization. In 1950 after a year's occupation by the Chinese Communists in Shanghai, I managed to be one of the first Europeans to leave the city and I lived -- I went to Japan and lived in Japan for about two years and then I migrated to Brazil where I registered for employment for being able to work as a native there. You had to have a work card before you managed to get a job. And I was fortunate enough to get a

Printed Page 2428 . . . . . Thursday, February 24, 1994
what they call a carte del trabajo (phonetic) and, which was a work permit and worked for the Brazilian telephone company which was an extremely diversified rural and broad -- broadly based education for me in the field of telecommunications.

I applied -- I was going to apply for Brazilian citizenship when a visa from the United States was made available to me and I emigrated immediately leaving my family behind in Rio De Janeiro. Anyway, I eventually got into the United States.
Q. And that was, I believe, in the late fifties; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And from that time forward -- from 1959, I believe, on, you have worked for such diversified utilities as GTE, New York Central Railroad, ITT, MITRE Company?
A. MITRE company.
Q. MITRE?
A. MITRE Corporation.
Q. Which works with fiberoptic network?
A. That's right.
Q. And with Bechtel, the large construction and engineering company?
A. That is correct.
Q. In each of those applications, you were working with telephone or data switching technology of some sort; is that correct?
A. Exactly right. We were the first -- first ones in -- in New York Central Railroad, we were the first ones to develop a quote unquote computerized data system which used what had -- what are known as floppy disks about 10,000 times the size of what they are today. They were huge monsters, but we did manage to get the first technology and the first ideas developed. And it was I think a great contribution to what followed.

I was also with General Electric where we developed the first satellite earth stations. It was to overcome the lack of broad bank communications for interorganization communication.
Q. In working with those companies, you are now retired from all employment with private corporations; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Do you receive any type of pension from any of those companies?
A. No. Oh, except the Ticrip (phonetic). I receive a pension from Ticrip which I obtained during my employment with the MITRE Corporation.
Q. And the MITRE Corporation is the one that works with fiberoptic networking and other developmental digitized switching; is that correct?

Printed Page 2429 . . . . . Thursday, February 24, 1994
A. Right.
Q. And they are not a regulated utility company? They are not a public utility that supplies gas or electricity?
A. No.
Q. Do you own any utility stocks?
A. Only in General Electric.
Q. Do you own any public utility stocks that are -- offer services to consumers in South Carolina? SCE&G, Duke Power?
A. No.
Q. CP&L?
A. No.
Q. If you had to name one or two important issues before the Public Service Commission at this time or you would feel would be important, what would those be?
A. Well, one of the issues I think are an old credo that I sort of grew into and that is to provide the consumer. After all, you're providing a service.

You've got to serve the consumer and the Public Utilities (sic) Commission usually tries to improve the goal of providing the best service at the least cost to the consumer and I think that's a very -- in my opinion, a very important credo to follow.

We are serving the public and I think that if we follow this concept, we can't go far wrong.
Q. What other topic or goal would you have if you were to serve on the Public Service Commission? What other problems would you address?
A. Well, health issues like the supply of water and a good clean supply of water. When I lived in -- when I lived in China, I worked for a year with the Public Works Department which sort of ran the roads and sewer pipes and the -- and the sewer plants and the water distribution and we had quite an experience in providing this water to the public and -- but at a very, very low cost.

But I was trying to think of the term as accurately as I could. That the purpose of the service was to provide good water to the public at a very, very low cost.
Q. Mr. Chairman, for the benefit of the committee, we have done a check of -- with SLED and it was negative. There were no entries. In addition, your credit report would have no negative entries. It was positive.

What other things occupy your time now, Mr. Novgorodoff, that would prevent you from devoting your time to the Public Service Commission? Are there any limitations on your time availability?

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