So from that background, growing up in a rural area of South Carolina, I know the problems of the poor people of the state. I have worked in the business area. I know what the business environment is like. I've worked with consumers from poor consumers to the wealthiest consumers in South Carolina.
We represent all spectrums and I think I have a good handle as to what the
people of South Carolina want and I think I have that to bring a balance to the
commission having worked -- having a varied background.
Q. A long those same lines, in your service in state government, have you
noticed as I have noticed a polarization of urban versus rural within this state
and within this General Assembly possibly? And if so, what would your position
on the commission be in matters that would effect this relationship?
A. Well, the -- I think the key issue in utility regulation, one area you have
most of our residents -- most of your rate payers with big utility companies
live in urban areas. Let's say, your electric companies, you've got a number of
individuals in a rural area.
Years ago I think there was a commitment on the federal level and the state level, and I will give one example, the telephone industry that every household in America would have a telephone. That meant those individuals in urban areas and those in rural areas.
I don't think -- I think whatever services that folks in the urban areas are
getting to as much as possible I think those in the rural areas should be
offered it also. And that I think it goes --
Q. At comparable cost?
A. Excuse me?
Q. At a comparable cost?
A. At a -- well, at a comparable cost, when the commission regulates rates, we
look at the -- they look at the total body of rate payers and they apportion the
rates currently industrial customers and residential customers. I don't think we
need to get in a situation where we have residential urban customers and
residential rural customers. Right now,
We've moved more towards the center. And I think there has got to be a happy
balance between setting rates, terms and conditions of service to keep the
utilities operating in a reasonable mode, in a mode that is profitable or a
reasonable profit, but at the same time providing that service to customers in a
way that you don't overburden them because this is not a wealthy state.
Q. If I had any concern at all, not that it's any real concern, it would be
expressed by Representative Wilkes about your ability to be for the utility,
would that be a problem for you as you view those people coming before you?
A. It would not. I mean the commission has to operate on the facts and evidence
that's presented to the commission and as a decision maker, you make your
decision based on the facts as they -- that's my concept of being a decision
maker. And whatever is presented, you weigh the facts and you make a decision
based on the facts.
You don't go outside the record in front of you. And I think that has been a
problem in what I've seen in my practice before the commission. Some of the
orders -- if you look at the orders that have been reversed on appeal, the
Supreme Court has said that that's --
Q. Thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN: Senator Jackson.
EXAMINATION BY SENATOR JACKSON:
Q. Mr. McIntosh, I also want to thank you for being here today, waiting all
day for this. Let me ask you a question similar to what Representative
We hire experts in various fields to testify before the commission. They
understand that and they advise us as to what is a reasonable level of rate to
insure that the customers are able to pay and as well to ensure that the utility
is able to continue to function as an ongoing concern. I think that has
happened. I can't think of any cases that we've argued or that I've argued
before the commission has the company has claimed that I've been unreasonable.
The commission has claimed that I've been unreasonable and the rates that
they're currently operating under have allowed them to continue. I don't think
there is any utility in my memory, but since I have been at the Department of
Consumer Affairs that was --
Q. Let me ask you briefly on this, if you can just respond quickly to me. How
do you think -- what is your opinion of the Public Service Commission's opinion
of the Consumer Advocates office? How do they view you guys?
A. I think some of them appreciate us being over there, but I mean that's just
from the orders that I've read and the language in the orders some -- in many
instances, they accept the positions that we put in front of them. So I will
interpret that to say that they appreciate what we put before them, since they
accepted our position on a number of items.
But as any attorney when you lose an issue -- lose a point, you may think
sometimes that they may be biased against you. But as long as the commission
uses the evidence in front of it and makes a decision based on what's presented
to it, I have no problem with the decision maker and no -- no opposition to the
decision maker.
Q. So they would not be nervous to hear that someone of your qualifications or
background could possibly be on his way to the commission?
A. I don't think so. And as I said, we -- there is some new members on the
commission and that I've been very comfortable with from the
How would you change the notion of what it means to be effective in your new
role and what kind of temperament style changes would you have to try to effect
and how comfortable are you with the need to do that?
Our agency also regulates pawn brokers and several other industries that are nonutility regulators, so sometimes attorneys in my division have to sit as hearing officers. Steve Hamm is the administrator and a hearing officer generally, but if he's not available, one of the attorneys is assigned.
So I've been in that situation where I have had to be the impartial regulator and make a decision based on what has been put in front of me. I've been in a situation where the advocate has been a fellow attorney in the office that I deal -- in another division, but that I know personally and the company has been represented by attorney from the outside. And it's -- I won't say a peculiar situation, a unique circumstance when you're put in that role and you've got to listen to both sides.
You've got to put all your prejudices behind you and make a decision based on
the facts in front of you and not bring anything that's not brought in -- into
the proceeding. I think I'm able to do that. I've been in situations where I
have had to do that. But it -- it's
-- in some ways it can be difficult because we all bring personal backgrounds
and individual prejudices to any environment or any type of situation that we're
in when we're trying to weigh the facts when we have two adversarial parties.
My father was a school principal and I can remember growing up many times,
you'd have one child saying one thing, the other child says another thing and
you just have to step back and just find some type of inner strength to leave
those biases somewhere else and just concentrate on the facts in front of you
and I think it's a difficult question, but I go back to just my varied
background that I've had experiences in numerous areas. And I think with that
I'm able to divorce myself from my role as an advocate and become the impartial
hearing officer, impartial judge.
Q. Right. I think it's less like being a judge because you're not a solitary
decision maker. You're working with a body and that's the area --
A. The one --
Q. -- in which the change would be required much more so as a collaborator and a
colleague. And I hear you grappling with the question and this is I think
--
A. Well, I would bring a -- something unique to the table, but each of the seven
commissioners will bring something unique.
I think I can -- again, I come from a different background, but in any type
of decision making -- a situation like that, I understand that I've got to leave
those biases at home and just make a decision based on the facts in front of
me.
Q. Thank you.
MR. COUICK: One short question from staff, if I could, Mr. McIntosh.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. COUICK:
Q. Have you ever made a motion for recusal of any member of the PSC?
A. I never have.
Q. Would you see that if there was a member that had formally worked for
SCE&G, would you make a motion for that person to recuse himself or --
A. It depends on what type of work they've done.
Q. If they were an attorney for SCE&G or perhaps a CEO for SCE&G, would
you ask them to recuse themselves for a rate making case involving
SCE&G?
A. If it's a case that they have some type of direct involvement or had some
direct involvement, I would have to strongly consider that, but I'd have to see
the facts of the situation.
Q. We've debated this issue of whether PSC commissioners are judges or not. I
ask the question of the Canons for Ethics for judges, they are called upon to
recuse themselves any time a former partner or associate in their law firm
appear before them even if that's a public agency.
In fact, Judge Goolsby recused himself from a whole lot of cases involving the State for about five or six years there. Would you have to
1. Carl F. McIntosh
Home Address: Business Address:
862 Stebondale Road S.C. Dept. of Consumer Affairs
Columbia, SC 29203 2801 Devine Street
Columbia, SC 29250
2. He was born In Fairfax, South Carolina on June 29, 1959.
Social Security Number: ***-**-****.
3. S.C. Driver's License Number: *********.
S.C. Voter Registration Number: 6 566 083.
4. He is single.
9. He was a substitute teacher for Allendale County Schools in May 1978 and
May 1979. He assumed all responsibilities of teaching grades 3-12. He
was an Assistant Debate Coach for Allendale County Schools from Fall 1980
to Spring 1981. He performed as a judge during debate tournaments and
assisted students in preparing debate cases and evidence.
He was an intern for The Honorable Strom Thurmond in Summer 1979
(Washington, D.C.). He assisted staff members in various office
activities.
He was a Teaching Assistant for an introductory economics course in the
Department of Economics at Vanderbilt University (Nashville, TN) from Fall
1980 to Spring 1981.
He was a clerk at S.C. Occupational Information System, Columbia, SC in
Summer 1981; an intern with The Honorable Ernest F. Hollings, U.S. Senate, in
Summer 1982; and a professor at Howard University in Washington, D.C., where
he taught an undergraduate speech and communications course in Spring
1987.
He was Legislative Aide and Special Projects Director for The Honorable
Butler Derrick, U.S. House of Representatives, from September 1982 to
September 1987. He coordinated research and the preparation of
correspondence and advised Representative Derrick on potential orders and
rules promulgated by all federal agencies. He also advised Representative
Derrick on issues pending before the House Judiciary Committee and the
Committee on Transportation and Public Works.
He was an Assistant Solicitor for the Second Circuit from October 1987 to
March 1988 and has been a Senior Attorney with the S.C.
10. He is a 1/5 owner of the family farm located in Allendale County.
19. Please see answer to Question 9 for this information. The following
served as Mr. McIntosh's supervisors:
S.C. Department of Consumer Affairs: Nancy Vaughn-Coombs
Second Circuit Solicitor's Office: Robert Harte
Office of The Honorable Butler Derrick:Leo Coco
Howard University: Mary Myers-Montgomery
Office of The Honorable Ernest F. Hollings:Ralph Everette
S.C. Occupational System: Carol Kososki
Vanderbilt University: Professor Burkhouser
Allendale County Schools: Joseph Siren and Charles Harney
22. In seeking the office of Public Service Commissioner, he has spent $31.50 for clippings from The State, $3.10 for Kinko's fax service, $5.00 for Downtown Printers' fax service, and $248.33 for Kinko's typesetting and printing.
26. Professional organizations: S.C. Bar Association and the Columbia Lawyers Association.
27. Civic, charitable, etc. organizations:He serves as a trustee for St. Paul Baptist Church in Winnsboro, South Carolina.
28. He has practiced before the S.C. Public Service Commission for the past 5 and 1/2 years as a Senior Attorney with the S.C. Department of Consumer Affairs. During that period, he has successfully argued cases that resulted in saving South Carolina rate payers millions of dollars. He has also attended numerous seminars sponsored by the National Association of State Utility Consumer Advocates and the National Association of Regulatory Utility Commissioners. These courses have kept him apprised of all national trends in the field of
29. Five letters of reference:
(a) The Honorable Ernest F. Hollings
126 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20510-6121
(b) The Honorable Butler C. Derrick, Jr.
221 Cannon House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515-4003
(c) The Honorable Steven W. Hamm
Administrator, S.C. Department of Consumer Affairs
2801 Devine Street
Columbia, SC 29250-5757
(d) Susan Berkowitz, Esquire
Co-Director, South Carolina Legal Services
P.O. Box 7187
Columbia, SC 29202
(e) Patricia S. Sanders
Vice-President, S.C. State Credit Union
800 Huger Street
Columbia, SC 29202
30. He is seeking the position of Public Service Commissioner for the Second District.
MR. COUICK: Sir, go ahead and take our your driver's license and --
MR. MOSELEY: I made a copy of all that for you. Is that okay?
THE CHAIRMAN: That'd be fine.
MR. COUICK: Mr. Moseley, if you would please raise your right hand.
C. ROBERT MOSELEY, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
MR. MOSELEY - EXAMINATION BY MR. COUICK:
Q. Mr. Chairman, in reviewing Mr. Moseley's driver's license, it indicates
that he lives at 137 Jefferson Place, Columbia, South Carolina, 29212. His
voter registration card indicates the same place of residence. I believe that
is a Columbia address, but a Lexington County residency; is that true?
A. Yes. Irmo area.